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138725-can-you-please-do-something-about-crafting
Content ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- It's equally obvious (I would hope) that the vast majority of F2P players won't yet have seen an iLevel 72+ Item and so what happens with level 12-14 items, and indeed level 15-50 items is VERY relevant. Crafting in WS was a bore and a chore before F2P - now it just sucks Rowdowser danglies. All The Best | |} ---- ---- ---- But that is the point: They are making the same mistake every other MMO makes where they make the crafting system useless as tits on a bull until you hit level cap. The system as it is now is totally pointless, frustrating to new players, and is going to drive people away from the game. I want Wildstar to be a successful game. I like it! But this crafting system is one of the things that it REALLY NEEDS TO FIX RIGHT NOW because it's going to put off a lot of new player who are going to get frustrated, pissed off and then quit before they get to the max level to enjoy the end game. So you think WildStar's plan for success should be "Alienate the players you want to sell things to." I don't think that's going to work out like you think it is. I came back here today because they seem to have managed to do the opposite of being helpful. Now when I craft items I get sockets which only have ONE option or red sockets that have Focus Pool in it which gives it a -22% by default and none of the other selections will change it. No matter what I put into the bugged socket it's at -22% so somehow they even managed to *cupcake* up an already crap system. Edited October 9, 2015 by PartTimeWinner | |} ---- No. Since none of us were discussing anyone's plan for success and the discussion was whether or not what you said was relevant (which it isn't) I do not understand this strange attempt at both A) putting words in my mouth and B ) divert attention from your error. Edited October 9, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it's in error. I realize that you don't think it's important personally, but the success of failure of the game doesn't depend on if you, personally, think something is important or not. The game is more likely to succeed if the crafting system is something that gives the players a positive experience instead of a frustrating one. We get it, you don't like that this conversation is happening. We understand your displeasure. Congratulations! Now, would you like to contribute something useful to the conversation or are you just going to keep complaining that there is a conversation at all? Because right now, this picture pretty much sums up what you are contributing: | |} ---- No, the fact that you are mathematically proven wrong means it is an error. What I like or not is irrelevant. My contribution is proving you wrong, and preventing you from deceiving other players. EDIT: And just like in the other thread, *cupcake*ing stop acting a like a child. Are you also going to go silent once you're proven wrong, like in the other thread? Stop posting idiotic pictures and admit your mistake! Edited October 9, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- ---- You have yet to show me where I am making a mistake. You keep saying I made a mistake in another thread, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Perhaps if you elaborated? Because, I can't read your mind. The rest of us have no idea what you are talking about. You may be right, I might be in error, but you won't tell us what you mean so we don't know..??? Edited October 9, 2015 by PartTimeWinner | |} ---- You stated that mismatching sockets would make gear people would be ashamed of wearing. You stated it would immediately make an item much worse, as in several levels lower. I showed you that at higher levels both are false. Your reaction? Trying to divert communication to something else. The crafting system is bad enough without need for you to say ambiguous stuff or things that are only true in some situations. Edited October 9, 2015 by Timiniel | |} ---- 1) You are wrong. Mismatching sockets will always lower the quality of your gear. If you are willing to live with that, keep being bad. 2) What crafting does at max level means nothing if players grow frustrated with it and abandon it before they ever get to the higher levels. Like I said before, your point is both incorrect and invalid because we want people to keep crafting, we want people to enjoy the game, we want people to spend real money on the game, and that isn't helped by a crafting system which is 99% annoyance and labor with 1% reward and satisfaction. The crafting system, as it exists now, will harm the game more than help it. That is what needs to change because I want the game to be successful. Which means not alienating your players before they even make it to levelcap. | |} ---- 1) 1/3 of a single iLevel is meaningless. This is the amount of rating you lose at master crafting. A THIRD OF ONE ILEVEL. Instead of increasing a stat +49%, you increase it +41%. 2) Max level crafting is much more important than lower level crafting where you replace items in 1-2 hours. Not only that but you can STILL create low level items which are better than what you find out in the world simply because the weight of the stats are different and you can tailor things to yourself. Also, 99% of people are complaining about max level crafting, Look around you, look at the complaints, look at the numbers and look at the figures. If low levels were the problem, then why are you the only single person speaking of these ? 3) Yes, the crafting system as it exists now will harm the game more than help it. Absolutely. We are all complaining for a reason. However, low levels, are the smallest, most insignificant of issues when it comes to crafting. I still can create gear for my alts that is better than what I could get with quests. Not only that, but again, if you want to complain, focus about THE RIGHT THINGS. Don't focus on low level items. Focus on the randomness of the slots and lack of choices for each in general. Focus on the material costs for crafting the crafting dailies, focus on all the things which are wrong 100% of the time. Don't focus on something that can be wrong sometimes at certain levels. That is the most meaningless, most insignificant thing that exists. Do not waste your time. Hell, do not divert the developer's attention away from what is really important to something such as that. We want to solve the problems. We do not want to disguise the symptoms. Stop focusing on the symptoms. | |} ---- ---- Amen brother! A ton of us brought this up during beta and were shouted down because some guy posted screen shots with items that had perfect stats and were overcharged 33%. No one cared that the fail rate on something like that was close to 50% so it would probably never be crafted on live. | |} ---- ---- I care about low level crafting because if people get fed up and abandon it before they ever make it to max level crafting, fixing the endgame and not addressing the lower level issues would be pointless and alienating to the new players. They need to fix EVERYTHING not just the top end. Edited October 10, 2015 by PartTimeWinner | |} ---- Your previous post correctly addressed the problem, and now you are again focusing on the symptoms. I don't get it. Do you really not understand that what you are describing isn't a problem, but a symptom of a problem ? They don't need to fix "top level crafting" or "low level crafting". They need to fix "crafting". And what is the problem with crafting? It's not that mismatching low level items renders the items much worse, no... It's 1) the randomness of the slots and 2) the limited number of choices per color, it's 3) the lack of predetermination in crafting (the strongest point of wildstar crafting pre-patch), it's 4) the broken ratio of cost to reward on vendor mats and base costs to daily rewards, it's 5) the high risk of failure at cap overcharge making crafting expensive items a gamble (and effectively causing problems if you are hired to do a craft and the items evaporate), it's 6) the fact that an item can have two slots of the same color (as if anyone would ever want this... ), it is 7) the fact that some colors of slots have no good rewards for certain roles (Oh, you got a green life slot and aren't a healer? Ooops), etc. See what isn't there? High or low level items being worse because of mismatch. Why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT A PROBLEM: It is a symptom of the problems. If you cure the symptoms but not the underlying cause, you simply hid the real problems and they will surface elsewhere. FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS! Hell, you yourself in your previous post you correctly recognized one of the big issues, why then do you not understand that your obsession with low level items is irrelevant because they are caused by that big issue (randomness)? I truly don't get it. It is obvious to see one is caused by the other, and instead of focusing on the cause, you focus on the effect? Why? Anyway, I have spent enough time trying to show you your argument was wrong, deceitful and unimportant. Do with it what you will, I'm gonna go focus on the REAL problems the crafting system has. So how to solve the issues raised above? (And yes, I am sure I forgot some, crafting really isn't in a great spot, but we have to start somewhere) 1) The reason they wanted people to have only 3 items per slot was to make it a more streamlined experience for new crafters. High level crafting doesn't have to follow the same rules as it no longer is a learning experience, so carbine should decide upon 1 tier of gear upon which things would no longer be random but instead, you'd be able to choose between a few set color combinations on gear. Since the introductory aspect is over, one can start the more complex and interesting experience. This would solve the randomness in colors aspect and would also solve another problem I didn't mention (see I knew I was forgetting some - there are really so many problems...) which is the very low number of items to craft, and the disappearing of the crafting of vanity items. If there were more to craft, there would be more aspects to choose from, increasing the crafting content and the chance for crafting for the purposes of customizing looks. 2) This is a hard one to solve without directly breaking the ideas Carbine had. If we broke it, it would be easy, but that would be harder for them to accept, so an alternative middle ground solution (which doesn't really solve everything) would be to have a color be instead one of 3 alternatives, which would not cause overcharge. Say the elements are set up in an hexagon, and if a slot is of color life, it's closest 2 elements/colors don't cause mismatch. For instance, if life was next to logic and earth, you could place crit sev, focus pool or critical mitigation in that slot without any mismatch penalty. It's the best I can come up with. Frankly, this could be solved in other ways (see 6) and 7) below). 3) The solution in 1) already addresses this. 4) Either multiply the rewards for the dailies by a large percentage, or reduce the vendor mat and crafting costs by the same percentage. Hell, this could be done only for the items in the daily crafting quest, if need be, with the quest returning vouchers and gold as well. Either of the two approaches is good enough and solves the problem. 5) This is a problem with NCsoft. They LOVE theyr chances fo fail in crafting. I experienced this firsthand in lineage 2 back in 2003, having a high level set with weeks worth of effort to gather all mats go poof... There shouldn't be a random chance they explode, unless there is also a random chance they come up better than normal (in the same proportion of the chance of failure). Alternatively, and I can't believe I'm saying this (but it is the lesser of all evils here), have a catalyst that reduces chance of failure. Hell, it could even be obtained with service tokens, omnibits, whatever (yes, I know, far from ideal, but I'm trying to come up with a solution that carbine and ncsoft won't simply flat out refuse). There are several alternatives, but most of them, including the simplest one: making the items have 10% or less chance to fail for someone that stacked all talents and is a subscriber and having an area emote when one fails a craft - to show to others that you aren't stealing the mats. 6) This is so stupid, so utterly incredibly illogical that there is nothing to say other than "PREVENT ITEMS FROM HAVING TWO SLOTS OF THE SAME COLOR". There is no way, NO WAY that Carbine or anyone else can think that an item having two slots of the same color makes sense in this system where each color can only offer 1 good thing for each role. It is so stupid, so completely bizarre that this can only be an oversight. It has to be. I lack the words to properly convey how utterly terrible this is... I can't believe this made it to live... 7) Life needs something for DPS and Tanks, instead of just focus pool. Lifesteal? Would make sense both flavorfully and functionally. Water is ok, Logic is overloaded, but sure. Earth, air and Fire are a problem I don't know how to fix. You know, the simplest way would be to simply say "This can be found in slots of X Y Z element". For example, critical mitigation could be life, logic and earth. Focus pool could be life, air and water. Critical severity could be earth, fire and, I dunno, air, and so on, and so forth. This would solve this problem and would also greatly mitigate 2) above, effectively meaning people could still have the randomness but be safe from the stupid mismatching penalty due to no fault of their own (randomness + penalties for something out of your control = bad idea). See? These are the problems and these are potential solutions. They span the entire spectrum of crafting. And guess what? If you solved the problems, the symptom you bring up several times would... disappear! Voilá! | |} ---- I agree with pretty much everything you said. There were other people saying crafting at low levels didn't matter as long as you fixed the end game. I was saying you can't just fix the top, you have to fix the whole thing. Love the passion though! Hopefully Wildstar will hire someone who can do math and understands progression curves to fix the system at all levels. /) | |} ---- Yes, but that is YOU. YOU have higher levels alts with resources, YOU have access to stuff new players do not. It doesn't matter to YOU but YOU are not the only person playing the game. YOU don't matter in the long run because YOU are just one person. In order for the game to be successful it needs to be designed towards helping new players who DON'T have high level alts to help achieve the basic goals of any MMO. 1) Be enjoyable to play. 2) Encourage playing with friends. 3) Getting to level cap so you can play the "Real game". It's not all about YOU. | |} ---- Eh, no. This is not a personal opinion. If it were, then I would not be complaining, and the only thing I'd be saying is "the system is not fun". This is an unbiased, impartial and completely birds-eye-view look at the crafting system. What I did was analyze it in a way that fixes THE SYSTEM. Not low levels, not high levels, not one profession, not one aspect: EVERYTHING for EVERYONE at ALL TIMES. Please do not mistake neither my intent nor my approach to the problem. Not only that, but these are also from the perspective of my alts (2nd technologist, 2nd tailor and 2nd weaponsmith) on the other faction which have access to nothing high level. If you cannot generate a proper approach to something, that is on you, do not assume others cannot. I get the feeling you are talking about the game. I'm clearly not. I am talking about the crafting system. Well, that and its associated gathering system. Nothing else.Given that, no, I do not believe the crafting system needs to "encourage playing with friends". Crafting is, and always was in every single MMO I've played in the past 14 years, a solo activity. If you are talking about the game, then I suggest you make a post elsewhere about it instead of derailing a thread about crafting. To finish, allow me to reiterate: Why? Because most problems in crafting do not affect "low levels" or "mid levels" or "high levels" but instead affect everything, and therefore, instead of focusing on the early levels which are nothing but a symptom of the real problem, which would lead us to "solve" the wrong thing, we should instead, as I have time and time AND TIME AGAIN stated, we need to... FIX THE PROBLEM. | |} ---- ---- Yeah, but that's stupid. Wildstar's big selling point, the thing that is suppose to make them stand out is that they are doing things their own way. They have said since day 1 that they wanted to listen to the players and do things right, not just do things as they have always been done. The whole pitch of the game was to do things better than other games so why are they letting this one person in charge of this one aspect of the game screw up the main theme of their game? It's like the boy scouts hiring someone who ran an ISIL training camp then acting surprised when things go horribly wrong and everyone quits. This crafting system is symptomatic of the fundamentalist version of MMO design. It's wrong, it's always been wrong, every player knows it, all the major designers know that it makes your customer base upset, but people keep letting fundamentalist designers use random stats as if it's some kind of holy scripture of MMOs. Until designers stand up against these fundamentalist nut-jobs who want to keep making the same horrible mistakes over and over and over then Wildstar is just going to be another game that people tried between WoW expansions. Wildstar needs to do better, which means not rehashing the same ideas that failed all the games before it. | |} ---- ----